February 1, 2023

TRANSCRIPT

Male interviewer – Michael Rowland:

Now, the term leader tends to conjure up images of people who walk on the world stage, like politicians and major business figures. But a new book argues that we should be taking a very different approach to the term.

Female interviewer – Lisa Millar:

Yeah. Dr. Kirstin Ferguson is a company director, leadership expert and former deputy chair of the ABC. Her new book is called Head & Heart: The Art of Modern Leadership, and she joins us now. Kirstin, good morning.

Interviewee – Kirstin Ferguson:

Good morning.

Male interviewer – Michael Rowland:

Welcome back. Great to see you.

Interviewee – Kirstin Ferguson:

Lovely to be here.

Female interviewer – Lisa Millar:

Did you feel, even being an expert, that you still learned things as you were pulling this book together?

Interviewee – Kirstin Ferguson:

Oh, yeah. And even as a leader, you make mistakes every day. I’ve been leading for 30 years and you still make mistakes. But I think there’s a lot that we can all learn, and part of being humble and being a modern leader is understanding your limitations. So if you’re aware of those, that’s part of the battle.

Male interviewer – Michael Rowland:

Yeah. Now, head and heart. Can you combine leading from the head and leading from the heart to be an effective leader?

Interviewee – Kirstin Ferguson:

I think you have to.

Male interviewer – Michael Rowland:

Yeah.

Interviewee – Kirstin Ferguson:

So, I argue that at any conversation, crisis, anything you’re dealing with, you’re going to need elements of head and heart. And so in the research I did, I identified the four attributes of each of those. But the art of modern leadership is knowing what you need when.

Female interviewer – Lisa Millar:

Oh, okay. And so how do you do that? Is it something you can learn-

Interviewee – Kirstin Ferguson:

Trial and error. It is.

Female interviewer – Lisa Millar:

… or is it something that people are just natural at?

Interviewee – Kirstin Ferguson:

I think of it a bit like Olympic sprinters. Some people are born to win a gold medal on the 100-meter dash. Some of us could train as much as we like, may never get there, but we can still get better. So yes, I do think it’s something you can learn.

Male interviewer – Michael Rowland:

Now, we’ve both done the leadership tests as part of the book. You’ll reveal the results to the national audience very shortly, I’m slightly nervous. But listen, quite a few case studies in the book, but two in particular leapt out at me, and they’re from opposite ends of the economic spectrum. Sally McManus, the head of the ACTU, and Mike Henry, the BHP boss. Let’s start with Mike Henry. He’s got an interesting backstory, and I found, a fascinating leadership approach.

Interviewee – Kirstin Ferguson:

Yeah, he does, and he really puts empathy at the front of his leadership. I think the interviews with Mike and with Sally, again from very different backgrounds in terms of their approach, but their approach to leadership is quite similar. It’s interesting, there’s an anecdote there where I ask both of them whether they think they’re more intuitively a head or a heart leader, and each of them in different ways start to rank their attributes, which I then point out is a very head-based thing to do.

Male interviewer – Michael Rowland:

Yeah. We just, we jumped the gun there. We just showed Sally McManus. She says she pretty much leads from the head, but as her leadership at the ACTU is, I guess, forcing her to do, leading from the heart more. It’s often a struggle for leaders, isn’t it?

Interviewee – Kirstin Ferguson:

It is, and I think this is what I really want to encourage anyone watching. Firstly, everyone is a leader. You don’t need a fancy title or a corner office, or any kind of position like we’ve normally thought of leaders as being titans of industry. We’re all leading, and I think being able to lead with the heart, as Sally talks about, going into those kinds of difficult negotiations, being able to read the room, all of those kind of skills are incredibly important.

Female interviewer – Lisa Millar:

Okay. Lay it on us, because you did get us to do this survey. Anyone can do it, actually. They can-

Interviewee – Kirstin Ferguson:

Yeah, totally free, headheartleader.com. It takes five minutes.

Female interviewer – Lisa Millar:

Yeah, it was pretty fascinating to actually go through the questions. I had to keep reminding myself not what I’d like to be, but what I’m honestly think I am.

Interviewee – Kirstin Ferguson:

Yeah, well, because it’s [inaudible 00:03:22] for you.

Male interviewer – Michael Rowland:

So, how did she go?

Interviewee – Kirstin Ferguson:

Well, there is no pass or fail, just before you two get very competitive on this. Now, I’m only going to focus on your top three. So of the eight, as you would’ve seen, firstly, before you did it, did you think you were going to be a head or a heart leader, intuitively?

Female interviewer – Lisa Millar:

I thought I would be a heart leader, and I wasn’t.

Interviewee – Kirstin Ferguson:

Right. You were a head?

Female interviewer – Lisa Millar:

And that shocked me.

Interviewee – Kirstin Ferguson:

Okay. And what did you think, Michael?

Male interviewer – Michael Rowland:

Oh, very much a head leader. Yeah.

Interviewee – Kirstin Ferguson:

Yeah. And you were.

Male interviewer – Michael Rowland:

Yeah. That’s good to know.

Interviewee – Kirstin Ferguson:

So, of the top three, you both had two very similar ones. So capability, which means not only are you really good at your job, but you believe you’re good at your job, too. Very helpful. And curiosity, no surprises there, you’re journalists. This is where it gets different, though. So, in your top three was self-awareness. Incredibly important, because it means you understand the impact you’re having on others and you know your limitations, and you’re prepared to rethink-

Female interviewer – Lisa Millar:

Oh, I know my limitations.

Interviewee – Kirstin Ferguson:

We’ll talk about your self-awareness scores later, Michael.

Male interviewer – Michael Rowland:

All right.

Interviewee – Kirstin Ferguson:

But-

Male interviewer – Michael Rowland:

Perhaps not as high as they should’ve have been.

Interviewee – Kirstin Ferguson:

… before we have an on-air coaching session, I have to unfortunately give Michael some credit. He does have a superpower.

Female interviewer – Lisa Millar:

What is it?

Interviewee – Kirstin Ferguson:

Perspective.

Female interviewer – Lisa Millar:

Ah.

Interviewee – Kirstin Ferguson:

So, leading with perspective is being able to read the room. And in the research I did with QT, it is more correlated than any of the other attributes with being a modern leader. And it means you can read a room, a physical room, but also your industry, the country, what’s going on, and you can see who’s missing from the room. So that’s all incredibly important.

Male interviewer – Michael Rowland:

Ah, that’s nice to hear. Oh, thank you, Kirstin.

Female interviewer – Lisa Millar:

Ah, congratulations. Superpower [inaudible 00:04:47]

Interviewee – Kirstin Ferguson:

For the real down and dirty results, we’ll talk privately after this.

Male interviewer – Michael Rowland:

Yes, I think conversations are needed.

Female interviewer – Lisa Millar:

Honestly, it is a fascinating read, though, to go through that. And because you bring in all those different examples, but I do, I love it that you stress you don’t have to be running a big company, you can be taking the kids on the carpool-

Interviewee – Kirstin Ferguson:

… at the check-out, at the grocery-

Male interviewer – Michael Rowland:

[inaudible 00:05:08]

Interviewee – Kirstin Ferguson:

Yep.

Female interviewer – Lisa Millar:

Yes, the-

Interviewee – Kirstin Ferguson:

Starting a business-

Female interviewer – Lisa Millar:

The young woman who was behind the counter that… You used it as an example.

Interviewee – Kirstin Ferguson:

Yeah. Everyone is a leader, and what I’m loving is, year 12 students are now looking at it, because we need to get our leaders thinking differently about modern leadership, right at the very beginning.

Female interviewer – Lisa Millar:

Okay. Thanks very much for coming in.

Interviewee – Kirstin Ferguson:

Thank you for having me.

Male interviewer – Michael Rowland:

Yes. We’ll talk later [inaudible 00:05:26]

Female interviewer – Lisa Millar:

[inaudible 00:05:26] No, we’ll talk later.

Interviewee – Kirstin Ferguson:

You can book him the coaching session now.